MVP lamar

whiplash13 said:

That could be true, but Vegas doesn't agree.  They all think that Josh Allen is the favorite.

someone else just said that Vegas has Lamar winning

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

someone else just said that Vegas has Lamar winning

That isn't true at all, maybe that was last years data.  I just checked a dozen sites, all have Allen up -250 to -500.  It's not a runaway at all but I couldn't find one site that had Lamar as a favorite.

Josh Allen will win it. Its a popularity contest. Lamar won it last year when there was clearly 3 better candidates.

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

yeah true

how is Lamar not even close to Allen?

Allen’s a true quarterback with mobility. Lamar is a scheme-reliant runner with an arm and some ability to read defenses and make the right throws. Just not the same ability as Allen.

phatalerror said:

Allen’s a true quarterback with mobility. Lamar is a scheme-reliant runner with an arm and some ability to read defenses and make the right throws. Just not the same ability as Allen.

you do not watch football, negative ball knowledge

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

you do not watch football, negative ball knowledge

Don't wish to argue about it. Consider it my uninformed opinion.

I've simply watched enough football over the years to know that what the media calls a "playmaker" and what the league considers "best at position" are two entirely different things. That is an informed opinion, and for the limited opportunity I've had to watch Lamar Jackson -- which is much less than a Ravens fan would be able to watch, bias or not -- I just didn't see a true MVP by league standards.

phatalerror said:

Don't wish to argue about it. Consider it my uninformed opinion.

I've simply watched enough football over the years to know that what the media calls a "playmaker" and what the league considers "best at position" are two entirely different things. That is an informed opinion, and for the limited opportunity I've had to watch Lamar Jackson -- which is much less than a Ravens fan would be able to watch, bias or not -- I just didn't see a true MVP by league standards.

4100+ passing yards, 41 passing tds, only 4 INTs, 900 rush yards, does have 5 lost fumbles, but those stats with a running back with almost 2k yards in the same backfield is insane. broke his own single season franchise passing TD record and beat the all-time QB rushing record. just an extra thing to think about. and just like my great grandpa used to say: "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

4100+ passing yards, 41 passing tds, only 4 INTs, 900 rush yards, does have 5 lost fumbles, but those stats with a running back with almost 2k yards in the same backfield is insane. broke his own single season franchise passing TD record and beat the all-time QB rushing record. just an extra thing to think about. and just like my great grandpa used to say: "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."

Stats. Pretty stats, but still a scheme-dependent result of Lamar + 45 Ravens, not Lamar The Jackson alone.

Barkley got more yardage running from a backfield that featured a much weaker quarterback than Jackson. Quarterbacks opening up the rushing game involve a sort of chicken-and-egg element about which I'm just not informed enough to discuss specifically with regard to Barkley and Henry.

James Cook is no Barkley or Henry. He's not making things easier for Allen.

phatalerror said:

Stats. Pretty stats, but still a scheme-dependent result of Lamar + 45 Ravens, not Lamar The Jackson alone.

Barkley got more yardage running from a backfield that featured a much weaker quarterback than Jackson. Quarterbacks opening up the rushing game involve a sort of chicken-and-egg element about which I'm just not informed enough to discuss specifically with regard to Barkley and Henry.

James Cook is no Barkley or Henry. He's not making things easier for Allen.

I watched a video after the Bills game that shuts down your scheme-dependent argument. I will spare you the 50 minutes but the routes he has to throw to are so bad. that first touchdown was Bateman running to an open spot because no one was open, the routes were stop routes and a HB flat. most of the other plays are 3 deeps routes that don't have 10 yards of separation and a checkdown. he is definitely not scheme-dependent, his is making all the plays himself (mostly)

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

unless the voting people want to make history i believe Lamar will be the MVP. Im not saying that Saquon can't win it but every QB to ever win MVP was a First Team All-Pro, which Lamar is. Its either Lamar or Saquon for MVP, also votes have been in since the end of Week 18.

I 100% agree with this

TexansAreThem said:

I 100% agree with this

ty

RavensFlockLetsFly said:

I watched a video after the Bills game that shuts down your scheme-dependent argument. I will spare you the 50 minutes but the routes he has to throw to are so bad. that first touchdown was Bateman running to an open spot because no one was open, the routes were stop routes and a HB flat. most of the other plays are 3 deeps routes that don't have 10 yards of separation and a checkdown. he is definitely not scheme-dependent, his is making all the plays himself (mostly)

You misunderstand my "scheme-dependent" reference. I believe all quarterbacks depend on their scheme, and that's about the synergy between a competent offensive coordinator and a competent quarterback.

What I'm saying is that scheme, and to a lesser extent situation, are primary determiners of what production capable players in the league will produce. Whether a quarterback throws for 40 or 45 or 50 touchdowns has much to do with the number of offensive snaps taken and the share of those plays where the quarterback drops back to pass. Above all, quarterbacks surrounded by personnel and employing certain kinds of plays will definitely alter how much time the quarterback gets to make quality reads. Jackson will take off with the ball rather than throw a bad pass, and his offensive line game him time (if Pro Football Focus is to be trusted). It's a luxury a lot of quarterbacks don't get. Put Jackson on another team, and you might not have a quarterback in the discussion for MVP at all. Or maybe you get more panic throws and lost fumbles and some quality passing along the way that just lacks the seeming elegance of Raven Lamar Jackson, 2024.

In any case, Jackson's performance this year was enough to earn him an MVP award because of stats. You and I are in agreement on the basis for the award. I just don't feel stats are a good basis for judging a quarterback. Quarterbacking is like fishing: You can do a lot of things right, but still "fail" because of circumstances beyond your control, and you can do a lot wrong but get results anyway.

phatalerror said:

You misunderstand my "scheme-dependent" reference. I believe all quarterbacks depend on their scheme, and that's about the synergy between a competent offensive coordinator and a competent quarterback.

What I'm saying is that scheme, and to a lesser extent situation, are primary determiners of what production capable players in the league will produce. Whether a quarterback throws for 40 or 45 or 50 touchdowns has much to do with the number of offensive snaps taken and the share of those plays where the quarterback drops back to pass. Above all, quarterbacks surrounded by personnel and employing certain kinds of plays will definitely alter how much time the quarterback gets to make quality reads. Jackson will take off with the ball rather than throw a bad pass, and his offensive line game him time (if Pro Football Focus is to be trusted). It's a luxury a lot of quarterbacks don't get. Put Jackson on another team, and you might not have a quarterback in the discussion for MVP at all. Or maybe you get more panic throws and lost fumbles and some quality passing along the way that just lacks the seeming elegance of Raven Lamar Jackson, 2024.

In any case, Jackson's performance this year was enough to earn him an MVP award because of stats. You and I are in agreement on the basis for the award. I just don't feel stats are a good basis for judging a quarterback. Quarterbacking is like fishing: You can do a lot of things right, but still "fail" because of circumstances beyond your control, and you can do a lot wrong but get results anyway.

Lamar only takes off after the pocket has collapsed after him running around because no one is getting open. a lot of the throws he makes are off scramble drill plays, week 1 vs KC he had no time in the pocket between Chris Jones dominated our young oline and Spag sending blitzes. Oline slowly improved but Lamar was buying himself and his receivers time, evading the pressure, making a read, scrambling, or throwing it away. If you put Jackson on another team, the Ravens probably arent going to make the playoffs. only way they make the playoffs is if it goes back to '00 and '12 Ravens defense with prime Henry carrying the offense. this offense is built around Lamar and Lamar helps Henry more than Henry helps him. I will also say Lamar has 400 more passing yards with less attempts than Allen.

Josh Allen is so overrated it's not funny. If Baltimore didn't fumble and drop the game away, they would have played the Chiefs and Buffalo would have went home. Allen sucked in the playoffs and he sucks in the big games. Jackson is more versatile and he had a way better year. How in the fuck can anyone have Allen over Lamar for MVP? And i don't root for either team.