I’ve lost so many playoffs to y sail

elmango30 said:

why does y sail work in madden but not real life tho? Do people in real life have the ability to defend two depths at once?

Because NFL-caliber defenders aren’t stoopid.

Is this a serious question? Certainly you’re not suggesting I mean it can’t work in real life. There’s relevance to the play design, of course. But the results in a competent Madden player’s hands is outsized compared with its effectiveness in real life.

Bauer93 said:

I think I’m taking a break and not getting next year game shit makes me hella depressed and abusing theses…. Like why is the same areas always open lmfao 😹😹😹

I haven't pre-ordered M26 and doubt i will be doing so.  Maybe i'll check in around Christmas or Black Friday if things are actually going well once the hype has died down.  If there ever were a year to vote with our dollars, THIS is it, while EA's exclusive agreement with the league is being debated.  Hopefully the NFL will at the very least take a "wait and see" approach and not just blindly gift EA another decade of their monopoly bullshit.  While i am cautiously optimistic that EA may put forth minimal effort, due to the fact it's a contract year with the league, i'm not for one second buying all the hype from Kurt Benkert and the usual suspects about how this is going to be the "best ever" Madden.  Anyone saying that is either a shill, or probably hasn't played more than a handful years worth of Madden, my goodness.  Same stuff every year, empty marketing speak BOOM TECH, or check out the new "physics" based gameplay, only to be followed immediately by them boasting about their XXX number of new animations.  Bleh.

I suspect the game will play much faster, more liek College Football.  Dunno how I feel about a wear and tear system in an online H2H competitive multiplayer game.  Maybe keep that for franchise mode.  And "impactful" weather is their major selling point for M26?  Kinda pathetic.  The game is already buggy and inconsistent enough, we don't need to be slipping and sliding on the virtual gridiron because EA is completely devoid of ideas when it comes to a modern NFL title.

Anyhoo, good luck fellas.

I call lots of Y-Sail, PA Snag & then hit ya with the MTN Dig Under once we're in the red zone.  Although lately i'm trying to work in my Bunch Spread Nasty, that Shock HB Wheel is pretty nasty.  Tears up basically every variety of zone coverage.

phatalerror said:

Because NFL-caliber defenders aren’t stoopid.

Is this a serious question? Certainly you’re not suggesting I mean it can’t work in real life. There’s relevance to the play design, of course. But the results in a competent Madden player’s hands is outsized compared with its effectiveness in real life.

I think it would be more accurate, in the case of y sail, to say the reason it doesn’t work is because the defending player is not as good at playcalling as an nfl defensive coordinator - most players are playing drop zone, which is rarely seen past high school

elmango30 said:

I think it would be more accurate, in the case of y sail, to say the reason it doesn’t work is because the defending player is not as good at playcalling as an nfl defensive coordinator - most players are playing drop zone, which is rarely seen past high school

Are you trying to argue that there's an appropriate defense to use against Y-sail spammers? Let's have it then. It's probably yet another combination of a specific alignment out of a specific personnel group, achieved by calling an entirely different play first, followed by adjusting the pre-snap positions of two to three players, and knowing which defender you'll need to switch stick to to make up for the AI-defeating RPO play that might be called instead. All while having the right abilities in your budget lineup so that your defenders will consistently perform their assignments without getting toasted or pancaked.

It's a lot harder to get the defense to do what it is supposed to do than it is to get the offense to run plays that almost always get players wide open unless the defense makes all the right adjustments as well as users and switch-sticks incredibly well. Everything outlined here is a pervasive and highly effective means of exploiting the defensive AI. It's cheating.

phatalerror said:

At least with Tecmo Bowl, even if you had to take a Roshambo approach to defense, at least the counters were basic and functioned predictably. With Madden, to throw Rock on defense, you have to call one play, audible to another, adjust the standing positions of at least two defenders, and shade a couple coverages, all before your opponent snaps the ball. And if your opponent himself audibles, well, throwing Scissors to adjust is going to take seventeen more inputs.

Good points made.  When plays are spammed the defense should be auto adjusting as opposed to doing it manually.    I can't believe we are still having this discussion like decades later lol

phatalerror said:

Are you trying to argue that there's an appropriate defense to use against Y-sail spammers? Let's have it then. It's probably yet another combination of a specific alignment out of a specific personnel group, achieved by calling an entirely different play first, followed by adjusting the pre-snap positions of two to three players, and knowing which defender you'll need to switch stick to to make up for the AI-defeating RPO play that might be called instead. All while having the right abilities in your budget lineup so that your defenders will consistently perform their assignments without getting toasted or pancaked.

It's a lot harder to get the defense to do what it is supposed to do than it is to get the offense to run plays that almost always get players wide open unless the defense makes all the right adjustments as well as users and switch-sticks incredibly well. Everything outlined here is a pervasive and highly effective means of exploiting the defensive AI. It's cheating.

two flat routes of different depths to guard the flat and the corner on the tight end side. 10 yard mid read to guard the dig, and switch stick. That guards y sail

My question for you, is what football concept do you *want* to guard it?

I believe that y sail beats most, if not all, stock defenses. This is an advantage for the offense, but the biggest advantage for the offense is that a player with no knowledge can call y sail, but you need to do adjustments to guard y sail

There is nothing glitchy about that, just that defense is more complex in this game

Also - you seem more interested in claiming cheating than learning how to get better at the game? That seems like a frustrating situation to be in

I used to run y sail  years ago, a staple when i used to run with the Colts offense in the Manning days.   Ran it with the Cowboys playbook during  Romo/Dez/Whitten years.  I use Ravens these days, I don't think its in their playbook currently.   But yea its a concept that has been very usable in Madden for years.

LevelsDivide4 said:

Good points made.  When plays are spammed the defense should be auto adjusting as opposed to doing it manually.    I can't believe we are still having this discussion like decades later lol

wouldn’t that be the job of the player tho? Why should the game adjust for me if I can’t guard something

elmango30 said:

wouldn’t that be the job of the player tho? Why should the game adjust for me if I can’t guard something

The problem isn't calling the wrong plays. The problem is not having a lot of good plays that stop this:

...without getting murdered by this:

Also, make contain work, and give me an option to get at the quarterback rollout-abusing user without having my defenders either ignore the quarterback rush, or conversely, having all flats-assignment defenders rush toward the line, giving up the short- and mid-out depending on where my mid-level defender is roaming mindlessly at the time I need to switch stick.

It's not because Levels Y-Sail is a brilliant play that it works. Defending Levels is a fundamentally simple concept: You need to get defensive bodies to where the receivers are, and in the NFL, the defense will have no trouble with this (unless the defensive coordinator is an idiot). But the AI in Madden isn't good at stopping this, even when I hot-route guys into zones to stop this specifically, all the while trying to finesse everything in five seconds and getting back in position to stop other abusive plays like RPO Alert Bubble.

The problem is fundamentally interface and AI. The supposed "skill" involved in hot routing multiple defenders and having to switch stick between defenders because they won't do what you asked them to do at the outset is obscenely difficult. My opponent just (step one) picks a play and (step two) snaps the ball, and if they have enough experience with the abuse, when it comes time to line up for the next play, they'll layer on route stems and personnel tweaks (this happens rarely, but is nearly impossible to keep up with).

If you're in the top-one-ten-thousandth percentile of gamers who have logged so many hours that this is no problem for you to manage, understand that the rest of us are not going to make a career out of Madden. The defensive interface is rudimentary and limited, handcuffing defensive personnel management and adjustments to defensive assignments. On top of that all, defensive users have to not get crossed up by play-flipping and formation audibles that further complicate all efforts to make up for the unintelligence of the CPU-controlled defenders.

We don't want a game that plays for us. But at some point, CPU-controlled necessarily involves some semblance of intelligence. When I play Madden on defense against guys who abuse certain known problem plays, I feel like I'm trying to be both coach and player while trying to watch which of my defenders will execute like a NCAA freshman.

phatalerror said:

The problem isn't calling the wrong plays. The problem is not having a lot of good plays that stop this:

...without getting murdered by this:

Also, make contain work, and give me an option to get at the quarterback rollout-abusing user without having my defenders either ignore the quarterback rush, or conversely, having all flats-assignment defenders rush toward the line, giving up the short- and mid-out depending on where my mid-level defender is roaming mindlessly at the time I need to switch stick.

It's not because Levels Y-Sail is a brilliant play that it works. Defending Levels is a fundamentally simple concept: You need to get defensive bodies to where the receivers are, and in the NFL, the defense will have no trouble with this (unless the defensive coordinator is an idiot). But the AI in Madden isn't good at stopping this, even when I hot-route guys into zones to stop this specifically, all the while trying to finesse everything in five seconds and getting back in position to stop other abusive plays like RPO Alert Bubble.

The problem is fundamentally interface and AI. The supposed "skill" involved in hot routing multiple defenders and having to switch stick between defenders because they won't do what you asked them to do at the outset is obscenely difficult. My opponent just (step one) picks a play and (step two) snaps the ball, and if they have enough experience with the abuse, when it comes time to line up for the next play, they'll layer on route stems and personnel tweaks (this happens rarely, but is nearly impossible to keep up with).

If you're in the top-one-ten-thousandth percentile of gamers who have logged so many hours that this is no problem for you to manage, understand that the rest of us are not going to make a career out of Madden. The defensive interface is rudimentary and limited, handcuffing defensive personnel management and adjustments to defensive assignments. On top of that all, defensive users have to not get crossed up by play-flipping and formation audibles that further complicate all efforts to make up for the unintelligence of the CPU-controlled defenders.

We don't want a game that plays for us. But at some point, CPU-controlled necessarily involves some semblance of intelligence. When I play Madden on defense against guys who abuse certain known problem plays, I feel like I'm trying to be both coach and player while trying to watch which of my defenders will execute like a NCAA freshman.

okay wow you weren’t even thinking of the good meta y sail lol. 

I don’t know how to make defense more customizable from a speed standpoint. In 5 seconds you certainly have time to set up a way to guard y sail. I’m glad we’re getting new defensive adjustments 

As for the fact that other plays are good, this is true, but I think that you shouldn’t be able to always guard two plays with the same setup 

Finally, I’m not sure what the solution is beyond “fix glitches”. Years ago, roll outs caused zones to sprint at the qb. That’s mostly gone. The y sail and rpo alert, are not glitchy 

Read RPOs are the biggest glitch remaining on offense, I believe that your players should not be playing a read key, they should be playing an assignment you give them and right now theyre forced into a read key animation

phatalerror said:

Any play that is called as often as these can be labeled as broken, cheap, cheesy, cheating, etc. The very fact that they are called so often and referenced this way indicts them. 80% of top players’ wins shouldn’t be earned before the ball is snapped. That’s not football, and doesn’t deserve to be called a skill.

Imagine if life were this way: 

“Dude, you’re 45 minutes late. Was the boss mad?”
“What do you think?”
“What did you tell him?”
“Y-Sail.”
“Cool. See you at lunch.”

Did you just say pre snap reads and adjustments isn’t football? Brother, when is the last time you played actual football?

phatalerror said:

The problem isn't calling the wrong plays. The problem is not having a lot of good plays that stop this:

...without getting murdered by this:

Also, make contain work, and give me an option to get at the quarterback rollout-abusing user without having my defenders either ignore the quarterback rush, or conversely, having all flats-assignment defenders rush toward the line, giving up the short- and mid-out depending on where my mid-level defender is roaming mindlessly at the time I need to switch stick.

It's not because Levels Y-Sail is a brilliant play that it works. Defending Levels is a fundamentally simple concept: You need to get defensive bodies to where the receivers are, and in the NFL, the defense will have no trouble with this (unless the defensive coordinator is an idiot). But the AI in Madden isn't good at stopping this, even when I hot-route guys into zones to stop this specifically, all the while trying to finesse everything in five seconds and getting back in position to stop other abusive plays like RPO Alert Bubble.

The problem is fundamentally interface and AI. The supposed "skill" involved in hot routing multiple defenders and having to switch stick between defenders because they won't do what you asked them to do at the outset is obscenely difficult. My opponent just (step one) picks a play and (step two) snaps the ball, and if they have enough experience with the abuse, when it comes time to line up for the next play, they'll layer on route stems and personnel tweaks (this happens rarely, but is nearly impossible to keep up with).

If you're in the top-one-ten-thousandth percentile of gamers who have logged so many hours that this is no problem for you to manage, understand that the rest of us are not going to make a career out of Madden. The defensive interface is rudimentary and limited, handcuffing defensive personnel management and adjustments to defensive assignments. On top of that all, defensive users have to not get crossed up by play-flipping and formation audibles that further complicate all efforts to make up for the unintelligence of the CPU-controlled defenders.

We don't want a game that plays for us. But at some point, CPU-controlled necessarily involves some semblance of intelligence. When I play Madden on defense against guys who abuse certain known problem plays, I feel like I'm trying to be both coach and player while trying to watch which of my defenders will execute like a NCAA freshman.

This play will stop both, make sure your cover 4 side is to the rollout side

https://huddle.gg/25/playbooks/3-4-def/dime-2-3-sam/cover-6-press/#

I would user the slot cb to keep them honest on the rpo and to cover the two in routes.  Switch stick once you see  it isn't an rpo.

elmango30 said:

okay wow you weren’t even thinking of the good meta y sail lol. 

I don’t know how to make defense more customizable from a speed standpoint. In 5 seconds you certainly have time to set up a way to guard y sail. I’m glad we’re getting new defensive adjustments 

As for the fact that other plays are good, this is true, but I think that you shouldn’t be able to always guard two plays with the same setup 

Finally, I’m not sure what the solution is beyond “fix glitches”. Years ago, roll outs caused zones to sprint at the qb. That’s mostly gone. The y sail and rpo alert, are not glitchy 

Read RPOs are the biggest glitch remaining on offense, I believe that your players should not be playing a read key, they should be playing an assignment you give them and right now theyre forced into a read key animation

He didn't specify, nor did I go through the list of many formations to find the key one. I do know however that where it has hit me most is when I'm trying to cover RPO-spamming. Forgive me for picking the wrong formation.

There isn't a defense that covers everything, but defenders should move and react intelligently. Unquestionably, that doesn't happen. Blowing the top off a defense is a rare event in the NFL, but it's an every-play threat in MUT 25. Even when defenders are relatively close to offensive players, they often get lost in collisions during mesh plays (which can draw a flag against the offense in the NFL), or they take terrible angles against user-controlled runners. It's unacceptable. Offense has its own intelligence issues with offensive line and lead blocking targeting failures and way-off-the-mark route-running, but even so, the offensive AI generally makes defenders look like clowns.

The point stands.

TheNickSix said:

Did you just say pre snap reads and adjustments isn’t football? Brother, when is the last time you played actual football?

Read this latest page and you'll get caught up. That's not what I said.